TIMGUL Archives

MUSIC series related => Help, support and tutorials => MUSIC 2000/MTV Music Generator => Topic started by: DJ_Omnimaga on November 03, 2007, 12:42:24 am

Title: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: DJ_Omnimaga on November 03, 2007, 12:42:24 am
First of all to open the following video you need a Windows computer with Windows Media Player or any other video software that play .AVI files on it. You probably noticed that all sound samples in Music 2000 are mono recordings. In some cases it can make a big difference in the song quality. You can add stereo by adding reverb effect to the note, but sometimes you don't always want the reverb effect. The following video will show an alternative:

http://www.mtv-music-generator.com/tutoria...o_sound_tut.avi (http://www.mtv-music-generator.com/tutorials/mtvmg_stereo_sound_tut.avi)

Basically you create two copy of the same riff, clone one of them, select all notes, go in notes parameters to change the sample offset in it (not too high though), edit the note pan so you only hear the sound from one side of speakers/headphones. Afterward you edit the other riff so the sound is heard from the other side. DON'T CHANGE the sample offset though.

Once it's done it gives the results heard near the end of the video. See the difference, eh? You can use a different sample offset obviously. Just mess around with it and find out which settings suits your need more. Keep in mind this trick may not work with all sound samples though.

Pros:
-No need for reverb effects to have stereo, good for when they aren't wanted at all.
-Useful for hardsynths like in trance/techno songs.
-Not glitchy like note effects (on top of that the two stereo effects in the note effects menu doesn't even sound stereo at all

Cons:
-Takes two sound channel instead of one, so if you use this effects in many riffs you will run out of sound channels very quickly.
-You may need to do minor adjustments depending of the sample used.
Title: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: DJ_Omnimaga on November 13, 2007, 07:37:51 am
Sample song using this technique

http://mtv-music-generator.com/index.php?a...ype=post&id=194 (http://mtv-music-generator.com/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=194)
Title: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: Not a Number on February 14, 2008, 09:57:24 pm
(Apologies for the bump)
I've found a more practical solution, and plus it circumnavigates the hassle of creating each riff twice.

1. Create and record the song as you would.
2. In Audacity, open the file and click on the stereo track itself.
3. Go to Edit > Duplicate (Or hit CTRL+D)
4. Pan one track 100% to the Left and the other 100% to the Right.
5. Click on the top track to deselect the bottom.
6. Zoom in as far as you can, so you can see each indivdual sound-variation...thing (*doesn'tknow the term for it*)
7. Because for some reason, it zooms to the middle of the song. Click on the Skip to Start button (looks like a purple "|<<")
8. Now select from 0.000000 to 0.001000 (it'll go to 0.001010, but don't worry about that)*
9. Delete the selection and your sound will now be in stereo!

(I'd provide video footage proving this theory, but my screen recorder doesn't record sound. :P)

-edit-
*I've been experimenting with how much you can delete without it being noticable; I think you can go as far as 0.001010, but I can notice the slight delete, even at 0.00005 seconds being deleted (and that's as little as you can delete)
Title: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: DJ_Omnimaga on February 15, 2008, 12:10:54 am
Yeah thats another good method which I used for half of the songs included in Timgul Rave Mix Volume 1, since those were mono. An example is Busted Up Remix, the first song

However it removes the alerady existing Stereo effects in your songs (like an acid lead going from left channel to right back and forth), so it is more practical if the entire song is mono. Also in some rare cases it increase bass like crazy so you may need to reduce it slightly
Title: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: 147 crew on February 16, 2008, 01:52:27 am
WOW, my melody actually sounds good!!! New tune I'm making sidewinder..but one problem my screen is very full, gonna have to try it out on my bass line, hopefully upload tomorrow..cheers for the advice..

So what about if my sample offset is progressive? As the Bass I'm using, (Drama,) starts at 4606 and ends at 735, one side is good the other same and boring? Anything you can do or as you say it will only work with certain samples? Try it in audacity, but I didn't understand that very well..!?
Title: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: DJ_Omnimaga on February 17, 2008, 01:16:15 am
you can do lot of stuff based on this method. If you use it make sure to not start at 0 on some samples tho, cuz on one side it will fade in and not the other, which will sound weird

I would only recommend this method with long samples
Title: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: 147 crew on February 29, 2008, 12:29:55 am
so is it worth doing the cloning riff trick as now I can get the track into stereo using audacity? As the mp3 files sound very different now, especially on facebook
Title: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: DJ_Omnimaga on February 29, 2008, 04:24:53 am
yeah now it's worth it. Of course reverb effects can also give stereo though, but for synth it sounds better with the stereo technique
Title: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: 147 crew on February 29, 2008, 11:49:54 am
Cool, cheers
Title: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: pillagemyvillage on February 29, 2008, 01:58:04 pm
after reading this i applied stereo to all my bass and melodies.
they sound so much better now so i would highly recommend using this technique!
Title: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: ImL on March 06, 2008, 11:58:14 am
I stumbled on that while making Perfect Day. I just offset one riff by a fraction of time in the left channel, and left the cloned one alone, but switched it to the right channel. Has amazing result.
Cloned an entired song once and tried it, but needs some major tweeking to get the same result. cloning individual riffs makes for a more interesting song
Title: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: DJ_Omnimaga on March 11, 2008, 12:20:37 am
true, you really need to make sure to just do this with long samples and not percussion so it sounds good
Title: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: Not a Number on March 16, 2008, 11:02:08 pm
I've just noticed one minor and annoying problem with this; if you're using a sample that has a loop effect added and you're ensuring the sample keeps looping, when the delayed sample plays, it doesn't loop.

So far, the only way around this I've found is to create a clone of the sample and move the first few "bits" (I think it's from 000000 to 000800) to the very end, then have the sample start at 0. Unforunately, owing to sample size (and quality) this will severely eat up your SRAM.
Title: Re: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: Not a Number on June 17, 2008, 10:54:36 am
Bump/doublepost for new reason:

Now, I don't know if this applies to the PC version, but I've found this works with the PSX version (on an emulator).

In the Note Parameters of the Riff editor, go to the icon that usually has this icon:

[][][][][][][][]

And change it so it looks like this:

[][][][][][][][]

I don't know the term for it, but I've simply called it "Yellow Stereo".
You might want to turn the note volume down a little as it may clip. But exit and voila, instant stereo. No need to use two channels for stereo effect (which I've now called "Red Stereo".) :)

Example: Attached file: "Infinity part one" sample; riff using Red Mono (no stereo effect added), followed by same riff with Yellow Stereo. (omg leaked track lolz)

Pros:
- no need for having 2 channels for each sound file
-- thus more samples allowed to be played simultaneously
- should you have needed a sample that loops in stereo, you can now have just the one sample in your pallete (see above post)
-- thus more SRAM available
- now you're able to properly pan the note left and right and still keep the stereo effect

Cons:
- Only con I can think of is that the volume might be too loud, which can be easily fixed
Title: Re: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: 147 crew on June 17, 2008, 11:53:52 am
Isn't that yellow red thingy the echo effect, and you can also make it disappear?
Title: Re: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: Not a Number on June 17, 2008, 12:27:41 pm
I know you can change it to
[][][][][][][][]
but I can't remember what that does.

I think that if you set it to, say:
[][][][][][][][]
It'll treat it as two 1/32 notes, allthough with no change in pitch. Maybe if you use the pitch bend function you could, but then you're still limited to changing the pitch by a maximum of 2 semitones.
Title: Re: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: 147 crew on June 17, 2008, 06:54:25 pm
I tend not to play around too much 'cos the samples start to go very strange  ???

Title: Re: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: pillagemyvillage on June 17, 2008, 07:22:41 pm
hmmm from what i can remember...
what youre talking about refers to the note reverb and note repeat.
if you click on the red square once and turn it yellow you apply what ever reverb you have chosen to the note.
if you activate 2 squares say 4 squares apart the note repeats twice. this is particually handy when using a snare towards the end of a snare build up. the more squares you activate the more the snare note will sound like a machine gun! the further each square activated is apart, the less tight the repeat will be. 
if you make all squares dissapear there will be no note sound at all.
i know this because it took me a while to work out how to apply reverb to notes.
im not sure turning the square yellow gives a stereo effect, but then ive not used music 2000 for 2 years!
Title: Re: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: 147 crew on June 17, 2008, 08:41:31 pm
yeah thats the bar/note effect section I mean, all I know is that I don't mess with that part. Leave it to the pro's  ;)
Title: Re: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: Not a Number on June 17, 2008, 09:42:16 pm
I'm anything but a pro (I just know the basics and I'm able to construct a tune without making it dischordant - only exception being h.a.r.d. Remix 2003) but I'm using Yellow Stereo just so I can make my music sound better. Pan-Delay Stereo is OK to a point, but with some songs I've made in Pan-Delay, you can sometimes notice the delay. (Pentanol 1.250 being a prime example)
Title: Re: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: DJ_Omnimaga on June 17, 2008, 10:22:30 pm
Actually I prefer my method for strings samples, because if I use the reverb options it still sounds mono. I can hear a stereo effect in the reverb but it's very weak and when I work with hard synths or am trying to do a saw bass it just doesn't work. Try to compare my song "Angel In The Stars" to "A New World To Discover 2008"

http://omnimaga.org/Our%20Own%20Work/DJ%20Omnimaga%20-%20Angel%20In%20The%20Stars.mp3
http://omnimaga.org/Our%20Own%20Work/DJ%20Omnimaga%20-%20A%20New%20World%20To%20Discover%202008.mp3

The first song was made before I discovered the two channel stereo trick. I used reverb to have Stereo. The second one uses the same sample for bass/main melody respectively, but the bass uses my stereo method and the melody uses both. Notice the big difference, especially in the bass. It seems more like the bass is there than the first song. Of course I do not recommend my method for short samples, percussions or vocals though, because then you will hear a delay. Also for most of my songs I try to not have an offset difference higher than 20-30. Also I make sure both channels offset isn't near 0, else for one of the channel it will sound weird, as most samples starts with a different sound. For example with Syn Brass and Synth Pad you hear some kind of weird noise at the beginning. You really need to play around with both methods and choose the one that suits your music genre best. Some of my songs made after these two songs didn't used my method at all, like Grooving To The Melody for example, because it wasn't suitable and not really needed. Most of the time I only use it for basslines (not long synth pads used as bass though), the main melody, and if the song doesn't have a complex main melody with lot of chords then I add the effect to the synth pad that isnt used as bass
Title: Re: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: 147 crew on June 18, 2008, 04:07:46 pm
quality, i'm gonna re-read all the tips for making tunes..made a string part and it doesn't sound too good, hopefully 1 of these methods will work  :D
Title: Re: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: Not a Number on June 19, 2008, 09:19:50 am
I usually experiment with panning if I have several string notes played at once.

Usually I have 2 notes played 50% to the left and two played 50% to the right. (with Yellow Stereo)
Title: Re: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: 147 crew on June 19, 2008, 10:47:53 am
checked out that yellow effect on a sample, it sounded good, bit sharp but I think i'll leave it in. Still need to finish my tune hopefully it will come together nice!!
Title: Re: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: DJ_Omnimaga on June 19, 2008, 04:00:20 pm
I can't wait to hear :), but I  am so busy that I am like 40 songs behind at least on this site that I still need to listen too x.x so it might take a while
Title: Re: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: 147 crew on June 19, 2008, 09:13:21 pm
yeah tell me bout it, way behind. But I noticed the symbol when you have read a topic so thats gonna help me loads..wanna check out loads of ambient 'cos if I made one of those style man it would suck right now.
Been listening to some Garage today, might try one of those styles soon  ??? Seems pretty easy but i'm sure it will be a challenge but a fun one  :D
Title: Re: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: DJ_Omnimaga on June 19, 2008, 09:54:29 pm
yeah the unread topic symbol is useful, altough when I converted the board all topics got marked as new, and when moving the songs into their specific genres almost all of them got marked as unread. But at least it helps
Title: Re: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: DJ_Omnimaga on August 10, 2008, 09:38:22 pm
sometimes the Yellow stereo thing doesn't add that much stereo when too many riffs are playing at once but sometimes it works fine. This fails usually with basslines that has an hard saw synth sound. When lot of riffs plays at once even if the bass volume is high or if I use two channel with the exact same riff it will still not be strong enough. WIth melodies it sometimes works pretty well though

It really depends of what kind of music you want to do. If you go with eurodance or rock you might be fine with the yello thing, else if you do UK hardcore you might want to use my trick instead

Another trick is to use a very similar sample for the left channel and another for the right one. SOmetimes it creates an awesome effect. Also with the yellow thing it has to be Space at 40 or higher or Hall at 50 or higher to add enough stereo

EDIT: On a side note, if you use Music 3000, Music 2000 PC or Music 2002 (only on PC) you have to use either my trick to have stereo or have some parts of strings panned to the left and the others to the right (usually each at different pitch) or use two similar samples, one to the left and one to the right, because these softwares only produce mono reverb
Title: Re: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: 147 crew on August 10, 2008, 10:24:35 pm
Thanks for some more good advice,  24 channels is not enough!! Pretty hard to get the best sound..
Title: Re: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: DJ_Omnimaga on August 10, 2008, 10:43:46 pm
true. For my new eurodance song I did not used my stereo trick at all since it was unneeded and I still had trouble in one part of the song to fit riffs somewhere. Sometimes I have to move stuff around and do some cleaning in the song editor to free up some room for huge riffs
Title: Re: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: pillagemyvillage on August 12, 2008, 09:35:59 am
its well annoying when you have to remove riffs.
in mtvmg2 when you have loads of channels full, some notes are missed in playback.
so usually i delete some percussion to level things up...
tip: if you experience, for example, a melody riff missing some notes try moving it across a couple of squares... for some reason this sometimes helps.
Title: Re: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: DJ_Omnimaga on August 12, 2008, 04:46:38 pm
Does it do this mostly when there's reverb applied to a lot of notes or does it happens at any time there's lot of notes at once? I know Music 2000 on the PS2 sometimes have this problem too. On PS1 and an emulator it didn't happen but on PS2 I noticed that when load of notes plays at once some percussions gets missed, especially snare rolls. Thanks for the tip though
Title: Re: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: pillagemyvillage on August 13, 2008, 09:38:25 am
i dont think it matters if you apply reverb. if you have loads of riffs playing sometimes some notes are missed... so the only solution is to delete some percussion of move the offending riff across to some free space... this doesnt always work, but sometimes it does... ive no idea why it sometimes works.  ???

Title: Re: Making a sample sound stereo
Post by: 147 crew on August 13, 2008, 07:35:33 pm
In my Stalker tune, loads of melodies sort of vanished during playback..I did have about 6 playin' at once though..all with reverb pretty much and the stereo/cloning riff trick  :D